"Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby dobbie » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:41 pm

NearlySane wrote: God could set up a universe any way he wanted in order for life to exist, which quickly renders the fine-tuned argument redundant.


Exactly--so, one could just as easily argue that God should have made the constants broader than they are, so as to better ensure that human life could exist.
Last edited by dobbie on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby NearlySane » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:58 am

dobbie wrote:
NearlySane wrote: God could set up a universe any way he wanted in order for life to exist, which quickly renders the fine-tuned argument redundant.


Exactly--so, one could just as easily argue that God should have made the contants broader than they are, so as to better ensure that human life could exist.


An afterlife believing Christian believes that such a place does exist - heaven. Here, life is eternal, so the conditions here (if there are any) are far superior for the existence of life to the ones set up for this universe. Like I said, it's cognitive dissonance.
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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby dobbie » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:59 pm

The point being, for this cosmos, God could have made the so-called constants narrow or broad, either way permitting human life. That the constants are narrow doesn't do much of anything to prove that God did it, because anyone could argue that broader constants would ensure a better possibility for human life to exist in the cosmos. Thus, one could argue that an argument from Design could just as easily favor broader constants, instead of the narrow ones. So, in the end, the "Fine Structure" perspective doesn't really say much about Intelligent Design, after all. What do you think?
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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby erik333 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:07 pm

As someone previously stated: Arguing the likelyhood of the constants being what they are is pointless since we absolutely have no clue what the likelyhood is. Any further discussion beyond that point is just intellectual masturbation in that it is wasted effort which can lead to no offspring. All we have is the sample of one, proving this set of constants is possible - but nothing else.

Even a cursury glance into cosmology would suggest that human life on earth is totally unimportant on the scale of the universe. Arguing that god is "mysterious" or doesn't need to be efficient in making humans refutes the theists own position: that gods existence is possible to derive from rational investigation of the evidence, as they've already removed rationality (as can be understood by humans) from the set of properties they attribute to their god.
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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby TomSmith » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:18 pm

I had another thought on the issue of fine tuning that although somewhat peripheral to it, i think is important and I'd like to get your opinions on it.

Most theists would assert that miracles do occur and in every purported case of a miracle that I'm aware of, a miracle is only ever a good thing. E.g.: a bus carrying 12 people crashes but 1 person survives completely unharmed - the assumption made by theists in this example would be that if no miracle had occurred then all 12 people would have perished.
That is to say that it is believed that a miracle occurring will always result in a more optimal outcome (assuming life is generally preferable to death) than if no miracle occurred. (Lets ignore for the moment the 11 people in this example that did not survive the crash)

In my experience the word miracle is most often used to mean a suspension of the laws of nature.

It seems that it would follow then that a proponent of the fine-tuning argument and a believer in miracles would need to amend their position to acknowledge that while they believe the universe was fine-tuned for life, it was not fine-tuned to achieve the most optimal outcomes for the life that inhabits that universe.
If it were then suspensions of the laws of nature performed to achieve a more optimum outcome would be unnecessary.
To put it another way, miracles would not have to occur as frequently (or at all) if our universe was 'designed' more optimally.

While they could argue about what optimal means in this context and why I think I or anyone else (i.e.: not god) should be the arbiter of that definition, the end result in so far as I can tell is that the theist would have to concede either that it is entirely possible for a universe to have been 'designed' in such a way that fewer tragic deaths (using my example) occurred and subsequently fewer miraculous interventions would be necessary, or that the great number of tragedies experienced throughout our history were and continue to be sanctioned by the designer/creator. The latter brings with it many additional questions with regards to why certain people are 'saved' while others are not.

Not a particularly flattering position to have to take :-/

I'd welcome your thoughts on this :)
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Re: "Fine-Tuned Universe" and Intelligent Design

Postby dobbie » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:53 pm

The only input I would provide, about the "fine tuning argument," is that it does nothing to show that their God (whoever "their" happens to be) is behind the universe. Perhaps, for example, the Great Turtle is behind the universe and not, for example, the Old Testament God or the New Testament God.

I, too, would welcome anybody's thoughts on this.
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