AE 650 - 3/28/10, "Free Will" again

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AE 650 - 3/28/10, "Free Will" again

Postby ExTech » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:15 pm

Brian called with the "free will" bomb, which got me thinking about that issue again.

He was concerned about having to talk to his pastor and mentioned it as an issue that might come up "in the principal's office."

I started a thread on this in "new arguments" several years back. I noticed some theists like to claim that a materialistic universe cannot account for free will. We went back & forth on whether we should even discuss free will, but didn't quite get to a good, clear response we could use.

I think I have one now, based on the very real notion that, ultimately, theists don't provide a "solution" to the issue of free will either. They just claim that "god makes it possible," without saying how god does so. Proof by fiat, "goddidit" all over again.

The funny thing is, it was a theist's post on the Usenet that actually identified what I think is the central weakness in the strongest terms.

It was a response to the notion, stated by each of you at least once and by most of you many more times than once, that there is no "free will" when an "omniscient god" already knows what you're about to do (or ever gonna do).

The theist responded that it's still free will because the PERSON doesn't know what's about to happen.

In other words, theistic "free will" is just a perception. Which makes it no better than materialistic free will.

Sorta like the "first cause" argument - if god can exist without a cause, why not the universe? If "free will" is a matter of human perception, so what if it's materialistic?

Haven't had a chance to "try it out," but I'll keep working on it just the same.


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Postby 7od » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 am

i agree with what you're saying, although i think that what the caller meant was that theists use freewill as an excuse for god in regards to the problem of evil.

personally, i wouldn't argue with a theist in regards to "freewill" because their brains are so wound up in mysticism and magic, that freewill is kind of like a soul to them. they don't know what it is, they haven't really thought about what it is, or what it would mean to have or not have freewill/soul. they just know their pastor told them that god is worried about their soul, and god loves him some freewill.

they've elevated the human race to such a plateau in their own minds, that they can't even imagine that the human thought process would simply be a naturalistic process. it has to be magic.
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Postby BahRayMew » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:42 am

I find that when "free will" comes up in a discussion it usually means that somebody wants to talk about their entitlement issues, like the universe owes them something. I usually expect a discussion on free will to end up with somebody saying something trite and juvenile. They're special. They ought to be able to do anything. And so on.

It's wanting to have a cake and eat it. Theists will acknowledge their ignorance and their mortal insignificance while simultaneously claiming special knowledge and special freedom. It's Orwellian double-think. The only way to be knowledgeable is to get stupid. The only way to be free is to take whatever a tyrant feels like doling out (because he tells you that the alternative is anarchy).

Like the absolute certainty, absolute freedom doesn't exist either. There are only degrees of freedom. It's enough to be knowledgeable or free by human standards.
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Postby GodBeLess » Mon May 03, 2010 12:16 am

Straight off the bat I apologise that this has nothing to do with the subject of free will brought up in episode 650 of AE, but it is to do with episode 650 and its just a minor thing and I didn't want to start a whole new thread needlessly. So please don't crucify me!

Find episode 650 on blip TV (link here and go to 72:41 and watch for 10 seconds; Martin and Tracie indulge in the most synchronized actions I've ever seen outside of the Beijing olympics :lol:

Its creepy and kooky and all together spooky.

(again, sorry if i should of raised this elsewhere, if at all, i just thought it a funny little thing that you may get a chuckle out of :))

My Heathenish Atheist Blog, Go have fun there.
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Postby 7od » Tue May 04, 2010 9:08 pm

great minds think alike
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