659 - Actually we did come from monkeys!

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659 - Actually we did come from monkeys!

Postby eimerian » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:29 am

AronRa made a video about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-dMqEbSk8
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Postby Mythman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:51 pm

See, the last thing I remember hearing was that we have a common ancestor with monkeys, but we ARE apes, and therefore came from them.

Is taxonomy in that much flux, or am I just misinformed/misremembering?
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Postby Cephus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:52 pm

We are primates, something that we share with the apes. We also share that with, say, the lemurs, who are also primates but not apes. We are related to the monkeys, that doesn't make us monkeys.
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Postby donnyton » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:12 pm

It's probably fine to say colloquially that we came from "monkeys" as long as we know what it really means, since the word is really often used to denote primates in general.

However, scientifically monkeys are pretty well defined and what we came from is, at least speculatively, very different from the scientific definition of a monkey.
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Postby Cephus » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:59 pm

donnyton wrote:It's probably fine to say colloquially that we came from "monkeys" as long as we know what it really means, since the word is really often used to denote primates in general.

However, scientifically monkeys are pretty well defined and what we came from is, at least speculatively, very different from the scientific definition of a monkey.


The problem is, theists are usually ignorant of "what it really means" which is why we have this discussion so often with people who clearly don't have a clue. We clearly did not come from monkeys and therefore allowing such a clear scientific falsehood because it's easier than actually going into the necessary details only misleads everyone.
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Postby eimerian » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:18 am

This is more a problem of taxonomy not of evolution. Lets take a look at this "clear scientific falsehood" Cephus mentioned.

This is basically how simians are classified. The NW monkeys split about 60 million years ago and the split between OW monkeys and apes happened about 25 million years ago.

Infraorder Simians
------------------Platyrrhini: New world monkeys
------------------Catarrhini
------------------------Old world monkeys
------------------------Apes (including humans)


"Monkeys" usually means Old and New world monkeys(bold). Its basically every simian that is not an ape, which means that the ancestor of the simian line must have been a monkey too.

If you insist that the ancestor of all apes was not a monkey, this is basically like saying that your brother and your cousin are from one family while you, your father and your grandfather (the common ancestor of you, your brother and your cousin) are from a different family.

And yes I know that atheists/skeptics have this kneejerk reaction about this. I have been there. I know the usual follow-up questions: "If monkeys turned into humans why are there still monkeys?", "Why dont the monkeys in the zoo give birth to human babies?" and even worse that I fail to remember.


PS: Even if we agree that humans came from monkey ancestors, when people say that "the theory of evolution says that humans came from monkeys" thats still wrong. Its like saying that the theory of plate tectonics says that there are many earth quakes in California. In both cases the theory explains known facts and predicts yet unknown facts but it doesnt "state" facts.
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Postby hereticzero » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:11 pm

Anyone watching sports fans would know apes are descended from humans.
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